Council Videos

Veterans in Local Government: Committed to servicing the community

Craig Delaney: Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us this afternoon. My name’s Craig Delaney. My nickname’s Dallas. I spent 30 years in the Australian Army full-time and I’ve spent five years part-time. Today I’m talking about veterans and just a quick snapshot that yes, I’m a veteran, but I never called myself a veteran before I joined the Veterans Employment Program. I always thought that ‘veteran’ was reserved for the older generation, World War One, World War Two, older people. So if that’s my perception of veterans, then how do these young people think? The average age of a veteran is under 30 these days. If someone joins Defence at the age of 17 with their parents’ permission, does the average 6 to 8 years service – they’re out under the age of 30. So they don’t realise that Defence has spent $300,000 training them during that time; 350 if they’re an officer or if they’re a radar technician with the Navy they may have spent half a million dollars training them.
Veterans across NSW, there’s about 5,000 to 6000 personnel that leave Defence every year from service. There are about 1,200 that return to a NSW postcode. Anecdotally or factually, they return to the eastern seaboard, 10% turn to regional NSW. Anecdotally, veterans will return to their place of enlistment, the place where their loved one comes from, or the place where their ageing parents are, or the last safe place where their kids went to school if they’re in year 11 or 12.  

I work for the NSW Government Office for Veterans Affairs. We were the first government agency to set up a veterans strategy and to ask veterans what they wanted from a government organisation. We’re not to be confused with DVA at the federal level, the Department of Veterans Affairs. We are the Office of Veterans Affairs, NSW Government.
We found out that veterans wanted recognition and commemoration. They want their ANZAC days, they want their Remembrance days. They want education and employment, which is primarily what I’m talking about this afternoon. And then they want community and volunteering. We know that veterans like to give back to the community. They want to belong to an organisation. So they’ll join the Rural Fire services, they’ll join the state emergency services, they’ll join Surf Life Saving Australia.
There’s also other support initiatives, because we know not all veterans are of able body and able mind when they leave. But the concern is that everyone says veterans all have PTSD, that veterans all have mental health issues. That is not correct. 63% of personnel leaving Defence every year are a volunteer discharge. They leave on their own fruition.
That leaves the remaining 37%, like myself, compulsory retirement age, veterans that are injured in service and can’t do their jobs, veterans who might have drugs or alcohol convictions or drink driving convictions and can’t operate vehicles. But then that leaves 37% of the 37%. Let’s round that out to 40 and say 20% have mental health issues. That’s the same as society, one in five, and that’s why we have casual roles, part-time roles and the like, that veterans can still contribute to community and still make very valuable contributions to an organisation through that type of employment.
NSW Government’s seen over 3,700 veterans employed since the program began back in 2016. They said they’d employed 200 veterans into meaningful ongoing employment. They actually got 831 during the centenary. I joined at the end of the centenary and said let’s get 1,000 veterans over the next four years. We got 1,626. It was a great mistake to make. So now we’ve set a new target of 2,000. We’ve currently got 1,274 and we’re on track. We’re only just marginally ahead, but that keeps the minister involved with our program and helping us do stuff and he’s fantastic with what he does to support us moving forward.
So people here understand the ranks in Defence. It’s very simple. Navy is the senior service with the ranks, Army and Air Force officers, then Navy, Army, Air Force, other ranks. If we divide those ranks into a quadrant, we can understand how the strategic level of Defence works with the Chief of Defence Force there, David Johnson. These are the people that come up with the strategic direction in local government, they’re like your mayors, your general managers, your executive directors, people that come up with the direction for what the local government is going to do. You’ve then got the middle ranking officers like myself who didn’t always wear the beret and the cravat. What I did there, I was the Australia’s contingent commander of the Senior Logistic Advisor at the United Nations. The United Nations gave me the strategic direction with what to do and told me to move the mission from North to South Sudan. So I came up with a plan to move 7,000 people and 30,000 tons of cargo. Of course I didn’t do that all myself – it’s up to the backbone of Defence, the warrant officers and senior non-commissioned officers who break my plan down into bite sized chunks so the soldiers, sailors and aviators can complete those tasks. These days soldiers, sailors and aviators work in teams of five to 10 personnel. They’re very smart individuals that work fantastically as a team. They have a leader and they have a second in command.
These days they are not given prescriptive orders like in the old days, they’re given mission orders. A mission order might be that the man or woman’s security is thirsty, get them a drink. So if they can’t go out the front door, they’ll go out the back door. They’ll abseil down the building and they’ll spill the coffee on the way. It doesn’t matter. Who in my team of five to 10 has a water bottle? Give the person a drink. Reset for the next activity.
They’ll think outside the box to solve the problem as long as they don’t breach safety. NSW Government has a question on all of its applications: have you served the Australian Defence Force? Yes, no or not specified. And NSW Government values the skills and attributes veterans can bring to government.
I write a biannual report every six months and I can tell you by a position, by gender, the positions that are won by veterans, the type of roles they get and everything like that. It is all de-identified data for us to write and conduct analysis on where veterans are going.
This led to the Local Government Veterans Employment Program being developed with 45,000 positions out there and 128 local governments across the state. In collaboration with the Office of Local Government, Local Government Association, United Services Union, we developed a Rank to Grade guide. It’s not a specific guide, but it helps veterans understand what positions they fall within local council, it gives them an understanding of what positions are available. The first local council, thank you to Lake Macquarie and Penny Howell – they were the first one to develop a local government veterans employment program and they did three incredibly simple things.
They put a note under diversity on the website: We value the skills and attributes veterans can bring to our council. They then put a veteran indicator question: Have you served the Australian Defence Force? And then they did the most powerful thing of the lot. They volunteered to give veterans honest, constructive feedback on their applications if they’re unsuccessful and to assist them moving forward and they could quite easily just tell them to speak to Craig Delaney in the Veterans Employment Program and that would assist them finding a role in the future. I currently have or we currently have 36 local governments on our books that are supporting veterans employment and they have varying degrees of veterans employment programs.
TAFE NSW provides the Ranks to Recognition Program for veterans. They provide a wrap around service. They give veterans recognition of prior learning for their military service and assist them finding qualifications. Veterans can… The most prolific courses are the Diploma in Project Management and the Cert IV in Training and Assessment.
They also have a Paid to Learn Program at TAFE where veterans can use their skills if they’re a qualified mechanic or electrician, and they can go to TAFE and then be involved in the Paid to Learn Program where they will be paid while they do a Cert IV in training and assessment to become a teacher or an educator at TAFE.
Um, moving forward to Careers at Council and before I speak to Brendon and George later, I would just like to give you a quick introduction to Careers at Council.

The Careers at Council program has been established by industry to inform and attract local government, future workforce and as you’ll see, it is much more than just a jobs board.
There are 14 career areas on the platform where you’ll discover a wide range of roles and opportunities tailored to various skills and interests, all contributing to betterment of our communities. Hey George, how are you? 

George Grivas: Hey, Delaney, how you going? 

Craig Delaney: Good, good. Within the dedicated veterans webpage, you can learn all about the many local government roles that need the skills and qualifications and attributes demonstrated by veterans. These include trade skill qualifications, leadership experience, teamwork and adaptability, all of which are transferable to local government. You can also find blog stories and videos of council employees who have made the successful transition from veterans to local government.
And a suite of resources to guide your next steps. We encourage you to explore it, share it with others, and consider how your skills and passion might contribute to serving within your local community.
Joining the Careers at Council community is a great way to explore job opportunities. You can sign up and apply for jobs. If you don’t immediately find what you’re looking for, you can register for job alerts. You can read employee stories, and connect with us on social media.
All right, let me stop the presentation that I’m doing there. Stop presenting.  

And let me move over to the best part of the day to talk to our veterans. Very quickly, as I just prepare for that, there’s two questions that I’ve been asked to answer as the Veterans Employment Program Manager. What are the biggest misconceptions councils have about hiring veterans?
And the other one is how can councils better align their recruitment strategies and attract veterans talents?
My response, pardon me, to what of the biggest misconceptions are, is people don’t understand the experience that veterans have. A brigade in the military is like a small community. They have 5,000 to 6,000 personnel situated in Darwin, Townsville and Brisbane. Those brigades can deploy anywhere in the world if required. Part of their lead up training, they go from a barracks environment out to a greenfield site in the bush and they set up track plans which are roads, they set up communications facilities, hospital facilities, policing facilities, they’ve got mechanics, they’ve got electricians – they have every job you have in your local council. Unfortunately, people don’t realise that veterans or service personnel are very smart young individuals. They have initiative that they can think outside the box. They can do things.
People still think of veterans as being dictated to that they’re going to do that; they’re not going to think outside the box. They think like robots. So that is the thing you need to understand. They’re very smart young individuals, as we’ll find out off George and Brendon shortly.
The other question is how can councils better align recruiting strategies to attract veterans, is if they get a veteran’s application to ask a veteran who works in council what has this person done and get them to help interpret it or get them to speak to me and get me to help interpret what is going on there.
So moving over to the questions. So first of all, I’ll ask questions of Brendon and then I’ll ask some questions of George. Then we’ll get down to some specific questions. But you can think about this. I’ll go with Brendon first. Brendon, what motivated you to join the local council of Lake Macquarie, please? 

Brendon O’Donnell: So, similar to the themes that you’ve been highlighting, Craig, the Lake Macquarie City Council role really stood out to me for that community and that opportunity to collaborate. Obviously serving has for me was a large part of my upbringing. I joined very early at 19 and served for 12 years and having the ability to work with a large team to try and achieve goals for the community was something that really appealed to me with this role that I’m now currently in. 

Craig Delaney: All right. Thank you. George, would you like to answer the same question? What motivated you to join local council, being Queanbeyan Palerang? 

George Grivas: Word of mouth as well as, yeah, the community thing. It’s a bit hard to follow Brendon’s run there. He pretty much said everything I wanted to say. But yeah, just the community thing as well is really good, is really big for me. And just getting back into the government role is always, it’s easy. It feels easy, you know what I mean? A little bit more regimental as such, sometimes, sometimes. 

Craig Delaney: All right. And to save Brendon stealing your thunder on the next questions, the second question, I’ll come straight to you, mate, so then he can answer it next, is how did you find the recruitment process? And before you start, through my help of a lot of veterans doing stuff is we find that veterans join Defence, but they never apply for a civilian job while in service. So it can be very daunting when they get out of service and start applying for jobs. So how did you find the recruitment process when you applied at Queanbeyan Palerang? You obviously won the job. 

George Grivas: OK.
Yeah, look, for me, it wasn’t too, too bad. I still had to jump through all the hoops and do the whole recruitment process thing, which is online and do that, all the online, stuff… 

Craig Delaney: Testing. 

George Grivas: …testing. Thank you. Just had a blank. But word of mouth was a big thing on my end. I knew one of the mechanics that was there. They were chasing someone. He told me to apply. And I just followed the bouncing ball, you know, and done all the infrastructure on the internet end. Then went to the interviews and stuff and so it was quite easy. It was quite easy.  

Craig Delaney: All right. Excellent. 

George Grivas: So just yeah, yeah. 

Craig Delaney: Thank you. And over to you, Brendon. How did you find the recruiting process? 

Brendon O’Donnell: Yeah, very similar to George. The word of mouth here at Lake Macquarie was something that was very open. So again, I was lucky enough to know somebody who’d worked in the team that I’m currently working in as well. I had a good idea of what I might be in for in doing this role.
But also the actual recruitment process was quite encouraging. So as you alluded to, Penny’s done some work with noting the veterans. It was a piece that was highlighted in the interview to be able to have a discussion around how some of that experience might be transferable because as you’ve alluded to, it’s not just about the technical stuff that we pick up in our time in Defence, it is about those more humanistic skills around the communication, the leadership and all of that type of stuff that we just take for granted was brought up. The recruitment process was very standard, so resumes, interviews, questions, but Lake Mac were also very accommodating in being able to give you the time to get the right answers. So you know, interviews can be daunting for people. You can get flustered or mishear a question or need some time to think about responses, and they were very accommodating with that. 

Craig Delaney: No, that’s a good answer there. And what a lot of government agencies like is when answering questions, use the STAR technique, Situation, Task, Action and Result. And I’ve found that that helps veterans a great way that they can just write STAR down on a piece of paper during the interview, and they can say the situation was this, the task was this, the action was this and the result was that. So that gives them a very good step up going forward because it’s very structured. All right. Now let’s move into the specific questions. And George, sorry, Brendon, I’ll lead off with you.
The first question for yourself, we’ll go through three of them. Which technical or operational skill from your military experience have directly translated into your council role, please? 

Brendon O’Donnell: Yeah, not a worry. So for me, I was a structural technician, so I was a tradesman on the tools and obviously my current role is nowhere near that. It’s very, very different. And funnily enough, the technical skills that were transferable were actually the things that I didn’t really enjoy doing as a tradesman. So the paperwork, the reporting, the structures around that was definitely a challenge and a learned skill, but the framework around the reporting that they give us in the Defence Force and learning how to structure a report has been very handy. Operational skills is really around that communication, collaboration, and project management, as you’ve alluded to previously as well. So being able to look for solutions, look for ways to make a solution possible, being able to collaborate with many stakeholders around council. I’ve got large portfolios that I need to be working with people in the city works department, the waste department, the executive team, you know, we’re consulting across all levels of council to be able to get contracts in place. And those skills that I learned in my time in Defence have been really critical to be able to execute the role I’m doing. 

Craig Delaney: Wow, that was a very articulate answer. Thank you very much. Now the second question, how have your soft skills like leadership, adaptability and teamwork helped you be successful within the government? 

Brendon O’Donnell: The human skills are always a good one. I really enjoy this aspect of my job, so having to interact, influence and negotiate with many varied people. So as I alluded to, there’s a lot of internal people here at council I need to work with around generating scopes of works, getting approvals for reports, explaining the situations on where we are at, where we’re moving to. I have the ability to train and encourage our people to learn contract systems and upskill and use that training and coaching that I’ve developed in my time in Defense. And then the teamwork, being able to work within not only my team, but the larger financial services team here at Lake Macquarie City Council to help present full pictures to all of the decision makers so that it’s very transparent and there really aren’t any questions or loopholes or missteps that we’re falling into. 

Craig Delaney: So I’d put that down to the throwaway line in Defence all the time is attention to detail that you’re able to check those boxes and bring that forward. And there’s a lot of those soft skills that we just don’t realise that we use every day in Defence… 

Brendon O’Donnell: Totally agree. 

Craig Delaney: …that are so transferable and you just take it for granted. All right, we’ll come back to you with some more questions in a moment. So, George, over to you. Your turn to answer three questions. How did your experience in logistics, engineering or communication in the ADF prepare you for your current responsibilities, please? 

George Grivas: Yes, so I was Armoured Corps in the army. So you’re heavily in communications in armoured and stuff like that. So yes, in the sense of communication in the council, we talk to I’m a heavy diesel mechanic in the council. Sorry. So pretty much everyone comes to me all the time, every day with something broken to fix. So I have to talk to them and it’s a lot saying sounds easy, but to get the actual answers on what’s happening with the machine, what they need done is two different things, you know, and a lot of people don’t have those communication skills to get that out. So I think Defence being such a communication beast of a thing has helped me in that aspect. Even though the limelights like this, I’m not that very well, that very good. But anyway. 

Craig Delaney: You’re doing a great job, mate… 

George Grivas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Craig Delaney: …and helping to share with other veterans. So that is, thank you very much. You’ve ticked a box. 

George Grivas: That’s fine.  

Craig Delaney: …Don’t let me interrupt you.  

George Grivas: No, no, you’re right. You’re right. So, yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know what else to say. 

Craig Delaney: That’s all right. We’ll move on to the next question. That’s easy. How do veterans typically demonstrate resilience and problem solving in council settings? 

George Grivas: Is that for me?  

Craig Delaney: That’s for you. The next two questions are for you, so you can focus on them when they come up. 

George Grivas: Yeah, I think adaptability is a big thing in Defence and being to adapt on the fly is a really big thing. So a lot of the times someone will come with me with a problem and they’ll think that it’ll be a week or we’ll have to outsource it to fix it. And we’ll be like, no, no, no, we can do that. And I’ll even catch other people off guard and like, can we? Yeah, we can. We can do XYZ. Oh, sweet. And we go and get it done and they’re like gobsmacked of how quick and easy it was to actually get it done so, yeah, what Brendon was saying before is people underestimate that you’re not afraid to get in and have a go. And other times other people will just go, nah, there’s a civilian company out there that’ll do that, and just do it to that. Just send it to that. So people, yeah, I don’t know, yeah. 

Craig Delaney: That is the answer. But that just brings to mind here that I say that veterans are adaptable and trainable. You’ve got your skill set. Both of you have got your skill set from Defence. But if you’re thrown a problem that is out of your lane, you will still think about it, brainstorm it with the people you’re working with and come up with a solution to solve the problem because… 

George Grivas: Yeah. 

Craig Delaney: …that’s what we’re trained to do. We’re not trained to say we can’t do it. We will help you, but we will solve the problem and resolve the situation. And that’s like what I was explaining the soldiers, sailors, and aviators. They will think outside the box to solve a problem as long as they don’t breach safety. All right. The third question for you, mate, is can you share an example of a challenge you solved using skills developed during your service. So probably just an extension from the last one about where you come up with fixing an engine and communicating to people. 

George Grivas: Yeah, yeah, communication’s a big thing. Um, an example. No, not really. I do it every day. 

Craig Delaney: Well, what’s an everyday solution that someone comes into the workshop and says my vehicle’s broken, you need to fix it. 

George Grivas: Well, today, for example, is a garbage bin. I had a guy, we’re doing major works in the main street and these bins, for example, they don’t make these bin inserts anymore. So they’re it’s rusted out on the bottom. It’s all cleaned out and everything, but it’s rusted out on the bottom and they said we need this bin fixed. Because we can’t make them any, we can’t buy them anymore. We have to fix it. So I had to sit down and like remap like fab, like just draw up a whole new plan on how to refit this bottom section of the bin and weld it and cut it and fabricate it and everyone’s like no, just cut it off at the on the street and leave it there, but in the end we actually fixed it so. 

Craig Delaney: OK. 

George Grivas: So, being so simple and small, but that’s all I’ve got today. 

Craig Delaney: But you resolved it, so that’s fine. Thank you. 

George Grivas: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was good. 

Craig Delaney: All right, now some questions for both of you. You can take them in whichever order you want, because I know that if someone says something that someone’s gonna say, that was my answer you’ve just taken. So we’ll throw the first one over to Brendon. What are some practical steps that you think councils could take to become veteran-friendly employers? 

Brendon O’Donnell: That’s a great question, Craig. I think there are many, many ways that they can be involved. I think being part of programs like this is a great first step to be able to advertise that. Penny here at Lake Macquarie’s council does a great job around advertising and having veteran targets when we’re recruiting, so making it an actual criteria that can be assessed against for certain types of roles. And also one thing that we do here at Lake Mac that I would encourage a lot of other people to do is that we’ve got a veteran community, so, acknowledging that the younger workforce is coming out. If they’re voluntary, voluntarily discharging, they’re looking for these types of roles. Government roles definitely provide a large amount of structure and kind of normalcy, I guess from your time in Defence to be able to do a quick changeover.
So having a community of people to be able to come to a new workplace and know that there are like-minded people or people with similar experiences to be able to reach out to have conversations about, have, you know, monthly catch-ups and talk about their journey has been a really beneficial thing here at Lake Mac. 

Craig Delaney: Well, thank you for highlighting that because, as I said earlier that Lake Mac was the first local council to develop a veterans program in the state of NSW, in the country, full stop. But then also you’re lucky with that’s with Penny Howell and the other is with Bryce down in Queanbeyan Palerang, that they were I think the 4th or 5th off the mark there. So they’re coming up with ideas to support you guys and girls and helping you develop your own networks within the council, so there. Have you got anything else to add to that one, George or? 

George Grivas: Yeah, I do. I think a really good thing that has been overlooked by my council, but they’re not… overlooked’s the wrong word. I don’t know the word for it, but you’ll understand when I say it. Is that when your ex-Defence, regardless of it being a trade background or combat corp, whatever, you have DVA appointments. Have you got DVA appointments to go to Brendon? Of course you would, Craig. My work’s really flexible with that… 

Craig Delaney: Supportive. 

George Grivas: …yeah and supportive with that. And I say ‘hey, I have an appointment I’ve got to go to, it’s DVA’, bang, I go. No questions asked and away I go for the rest of the day. It’s fine. Doesn’t come out of my sick days or holidays because it’s veterans and they look after veterans. Which is really good. 

Craig Delaney: Well, that’s a fantastic point to raise. So thank you very much, and thank you to Bryce for supporting it. 

George Grivas: Yeah. And it is a really, really good thing because, it doesn’t happen all the time, obviously, but you know, and if they need documentation for it, that’s easily done like, you know, but they’ve always been really forthcoming with it and, you know, yep, you’ve got that to go do, go do that. 

Craig Delaney: So supportive and understanding of veterans. That’s fantastic. 

George Grivas: Yeah, I think that would be really good thing for other veterans to actually understand and to also bring up in their interviews, ‘hey, I have’ because I did exactly that I said before I started I said, ‘look, I’m ex-Defence, I understand that I do have some appointments I have to go to every month or so’, you know, and I don’t want it to come in, I said ‘I’ll take it as unpaid leave’, I said, but I don’t want to bleed out all my holidays just for an hour here, an hour and a half, two hours there. They’re like, ‘yep, no, that’s no dramas’. 

Craig Delaney: Yes. 

George Grivas: And in the end, it’s been ‘don’t worry about it, it’s all good, you do enough’. I’m like, OK, so. 

Craig Delaney: Flexible work arrangements are great and understandings between the rank structure and that sort of stuff. So no, that that’s just fantastic. Thank you.  

George Grivas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that’s it. 

Craig Delaney: All right, valid point. Great point. OK, next question. How could councils collaborate with the NSW Veterans Employment Program to improve veterans recruiting?
That’s a question for me as well, but if you guys have got some ideas.  

George Grivas: Go right ahead, Brendon. Give me in a moment. 

Brendon O’Donnell: I think it’s more around doing these types of workshops, Craig, and being able to tap into those resources. I think the more we grow this network, the more we talk to more councils, the more we talk to more veterans and we get alignment around the goals that we’re trying to achieve together, it will bear a lot more fruit. 

Craig Delaney: Yeah, we have 36 local councils that are on board at the moment that have their own veterans programs and we do a biannual catch-up in September and March to actually share ideas and what local councils are doing. Some councils are doing expos for veterans, others are doing information evenings and the like and all different stuff. Each council is unique in what they provide and do, but at the same time, they’re all coming up with great ideas that they can share across the board with all other local councils. So that’s a fantastic initiative, what they’re doing. The question now is, what role does mentorship play in helping veterans thrive in a local government role?
Brendon, have you got any thoughts on that? 

Brendon O’Donnell: Yeah, as I alluded to previously, I think having the networks and having that mentorship is really good. Now here at Lake Mac, we have varying levels. So we have veterans in executive, we have veterans at the coalface, we have veterans in, you know, procurement support and business support like I am. It’s very interesting to get an idea of the challenges that they’re facing and also councils are a big beast, so opportunities always come up internally as well and being able to get an understanding of where skills that I’m currently potentially not using in my current role could be applicable in a different area of council and I could bring benefit there. It’s always good to have that mentorship and ability to talk with other veterans available. 

Craig Delaney: I always think it’s good for a council or any organisation that when they do develop a mentoring network for veterans that they provide a veteran mentor, but they also provide a career, either local government or public servant member as a mentor, so that the veteran is not getting a jaded view from veteran to veteran that they under the holistic approach so that they can get the from a person who’s been there for a whole career. But that’s all good. George, your thoughts please on mentorship. 

George Grivas: Yeah, I don’t know, but I haven’t seen any veterans. I know one in QPRC other than myself, but I don’t know about this program you speak of, so it’s interesting to find out.
As for mentorship, a lot of guys come to me every day with stuff in general being heavy diesel mechanic. So there’s just what they do because they break stuff in all the time, but they always come to me and have a chat and ask for advice and this and that and you know, I don’t know if it’s because I’m a heavy diesel mechanic or if it’s from the military, probably a bit of both, but yeah. 

Craig Delaney: I’d say it’s probably from your military experience and your experience with diesel mechanics and all that sort of stuff, but yeah. 

George Grivas: Yeah, yeah. 

Craig Delaney: All right, going on with some more questions here, so, what advice would you give to veterans coming out of Defence considering working within local council? What would you suggest they did? You guys, when you got your jobs in local council, I guess that you knew someone in the council, so you might be providing information like that, but how would you prepare for applying for your role with local council and the like there, please? 

George Grivas: I would just say just keep an eye on, find out what you’re after, find out what you’re, what avenue you’re trying to chase, and then check out online and follow the bouncing ball. It’s very easy in the sense of that. That’s what I found easy about it, was the whole recruitment process because I found it was very, in the sense regimental. Would you agree, Brendon?  

Brendon O’Donnell: Yeah, to a degree, yeah. 

George Grivas: Yeah, mine was quite, you know, follow the bouncing ball, tick all the boxes, do all the paperwork and, but make sure you do it and it’s at, and it’s a specific way. If you didn’t do it in a specific way, there was resumes thrown out. Like they had 15 people apply for my job and I think there was only five that made it through and I ended up getting the role. So, because they didn’t do any of the paperwork, like all the online paperwork. So, in a sense of Defence, getting jobs in government, I think it’s quite, it’s quite easy because of like the paperwork sort of things. 

Craig Delaney: All right. OK. Thank you. Brendon, over to you. 

Brendon O’Donnell: Yeah, so I would encourage the similar things to what George has had. So when you’re applying for roles at local council, they do a very good job at highlighting not only the job requirements and the technical tasks, but most councils will have a framework that they’re operating within as well for what the soft skills or human skills are to lean into as well. So they do, here at Lake Mac Council, they do have a fairly robust way to be able to show you things that we do in Defence all the time. So your initiative, your integrity, all of those aspects that you’re usually operating in a daily situation within Defence, they’re easily transferable across to some of those roles. So the technical skills are obviously one thing, but those operational and soft skills that we have, I don’t know how you feel, George, but I was very, I wasn’t very good at going into the detail that we just take for granted in the daily operations that we’re doing. So the things that we find fairly normal and routine in what we’re doing in our Defence jobs, they’re actually unique skills in the public and private sectors when you’re going to move outside.
So just having a look at those behaviours and the technical skills and then obviously trying to think about examples that you do in your daily job and not just gloss over the hard work and the detail that you’re doing, actually stop and think about, you know, you’ve got a breakdown, you’ve got to do some project management, you’ve got to do some prioritising, you’ve got to do some communication, you’ve got a bit of, you know, negotiation that you’ve got to do sometimes, depending on what needs to be fixed and who needs to be involved. These are all skills that people take for granted that we do every day, but they’re very transferable when you go into different roles outside of Defence. 

George Grivas: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was literally doing all of that two days ago. So we had a $300,000 machine that was, uh, being mistreated. And it’s not my job to tell the bosses of that section how to treat a machine. But I was like, I have to fix this machine. This machine’s brand new. It’s two months, three months old and XYZ has been happening. I said, so you, you know, ‘I don’t want to tell you how to do your job’, blah, blah, blah. But this is what’s happening. That’s what’s happening and people weren’t happy. But in the end, they’re like, you know, you’re right. And they come back to me like, ‘oh, thanks for bringing that up, thanks for letting us know’. And you know, I was like, look, I hope you don’t hate me for saying that. No, no, no, no, you’re 100% correct. And you know, in the end, stuff happens and stuff got done 

Craig Delaney: That’s what you learn in Defence, to have that moral courage to talk about it and do that. So that’s just fantastic there.  

George Grivas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Craig Delaney: A question that I haven’t scripted you for or haven’t been prepared for…,  

George Grivas: Oh, here we go. 

Craig Delaney: But, when you got out of Defence, what was your biggest concern when you made the transition from Defence? Was it finding a secure job or something like that? 

George Grivas: You want to go first, Brendon? You want me?   

Brendon O’Donnell: Go for it, George. 

George Grivas: I’ll go first, so I don’t forget. They wouldn’t let me get out until I found a job. I’m not sure about Brendon, but they said you can’t leave until you’ve got a job. 

Craig Delaney: All right. 

George Grivas: Once you’ve got a job, you show us a letter of employment and then we’ll let you leave. And so I spoke to my employer at the time and got them to write a letter of offer and a start date that suited Defence, and I got out. And I thought that was really good because then there’s no getting out and sitting around and not having a job and then getting, you know, stuck in your head and stuff like that, you know what I mean? 

Craig Delaney: You’re one of the lucky ones. Well done. Yep. And Brendon, over to you, please. 

Brendon O’Donnell: Unfortunately, my story is very similar. I was not leaving my Defence career without another job to move to. So my situation was a little different. I was unaccompanied in Sydney and my partner was in Newcastle and I wanted to move back to Newcastle and obviously trying to get a job in Newcastle while you’re two and a half hours away in Sydney isn’t the easiest sometimes. I guess for me, my initial transition out of Defence before I had this role, I actually went to something that was completely different. So it wasn’t nothing technical related. I went into operational leadership straight away and I had to really learn to lean into those leadership skills that we develop in Defence and really fall back on to that training. Funnily enough for me, I really enjoyed it because it was an opportunity to thrive. The training that we get and the environment that we, that I moved into at that aluminium smelter for the operational side was a direct transfer of the skills that I was using daily in my role while I was in Defence. So, although daunting, it was probably the best move that I made and it made that transition out of Defence less scary. 

Craig Delaney: Cool. Thank you very much for your honest answers there, gents. I’d like to thank you very, very much for actually coming on today and sharing your stories. It’s not easy, and I know that with our experience in Defence that we don’t like to sort of put ourselves out to the spotlight, so to speak. So thank you very much for sharing.
My big motto is ‘working together, we can make a difference’ and I really appreciate your time there. I’ll throw it over to Devika for questions. If you’ve got any questions from people out there in the audience, I can’t see it on my computer unfortunately because I’m outside of the local government system, but if we can get any questions that are there. Otherwise, I’m not sure how we do that. 

Devika Mudaliar: Yes, we have one question. Does the veterans program provide any support for the partners of veterans? 

Craig Delaney: That’s obviously to me. The NSW Government Veterans Employment Program doesn’t provide specific support to partners. However, if the veteran and their partner want to go to TAFE NSW to do further education. TAFE NSW has a Ranks to Recognition Program where they will work out what you’ve done skill-wise and what courses you can do through TAFE, and the courses for veterans are either fee free or heavily subsidised and for spouse and partners they are subsidised through TAFE NSW. That is nothing to stop veterans, spouses or partners from going on to our website and using all the tools that we’ve got there, the Rank to Recognition Guide, the Rank to Grade Guide, the NSW Capability Framework, and using the videos and everything to support them. It’s publicly available information, but all they need to do is just not tick the box to say they’re a veteran on the application, but they can use all of the skills there.
If any veteran spouses want to reach out to me, I’m happy to take their call and have a chat or try and discuss things. But we don’t specifically look after veteran spouses at this stage, but we do provide support if they come to us. So it probably doesn’t answer the question yes and no.
Any more questions, Devika, please? 

Devika Mudaliar: No further questions, Craig. I just want to say thank you to Craig, Brendon and George for sharing experiences and for joining this webinar. Thank you so much. 

Craig Delaney: Thank you so much for your time and support, guys. And as I’ve always said, if you come to Sydney, there’s always a coffee for you waiting. 

Brendon O’Donnell: Take you up on that shortly, Craig. 

George Grivas: Sounds good. Thanks, Craig. See you, Brendon. 

Craig Delaney: Take care, gents. Thank you very much for your time today. Thank you. Cheers. Ciao. Bye. 

Brendon O’Donnell: See you guys. Bye.